In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. And he was going through withdrawal. Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. And they had more. Like. More of this particular protein. I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. Also, thanks to Carl Zimmer whose latest is Evolution: Making Sense of Life. DESTINY HARRIS: Yes. These are four kids from the same birth mother? Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. I mean, I'm married to a Black man. That's how we ended up with four of them. I guess retard. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. [foreign language]. LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. This is from 2002. She was totally an oops kid. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. So that's fun. SAM KEAN: And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. Are you nine? ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. Were there any consequences? DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. And when methyl groups stick to that part of the DNA, the maternal instinct is effectively turned off. They lived longer lives, something like 30 years on average. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You know what they're going to go do with that money. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. Instead of dying at 40, I'd live to 70? Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. I had a little basketball for her. Just sing. SAM KEAN: Really slowly, gradually, achingly slowly. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. DESTINY HARRIS: And right now, I'm student teaching. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? Radiolab is on YouTube! ROBERT: Including a particular amphibian that plays a very big part in this story. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. This is from 2002. ROBERT: [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". You're slippery, partner's slippery. ROBERT: And this idea won him a lot of fans, including, not surprisingly, the Soviets. And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes That gave them an advantage in this situation. PAT: And that number, by the way, has grown a lot. The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. [chuckles], Yes, yes. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. Riksarkivet. ROBERT: Just for those years. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. PAT: But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. Anyways, God bless you. Where we began, they will accomplish. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. Kalia came too. PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control. He was mighty skeptical. I feel that they should all be sterilized. So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. CARL ZIMMER: So they can grab onto the female and hold tight while they're mating. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. They decided to explore this question. Radiolab is on YouTube! More what kind of stuff? Why would that happen? like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." Push yourself and you got it.". But wouldnt it be nice if thats how it worked? ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Probably racist.]. He's not even eating at all. Who now works at Columbia University. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. PAT: That's really impressive. The sneaky idea here is that the blacksmiths, the giraffes, they made it happen. DESTINY HARRIS: That's my little girl. The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. I should add too. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? SAM KEAN: And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? I could have turned out like some of the other kids. And I think that no, I didn't plan on it but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. The results are there. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. ROBERT: Okay. BARBARA HARRIS: Yes, she has the same name as me. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. Once their born, their genes are fixed and change does not happen in a generation or two. PAT: I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. Nice, cool water. The connection between trees Normally trees from different species are competitors. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. SAM KEAN: And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. JAD: I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that JAD: What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. PAT: Barbara has this drawer in her desk. All right, I'll get in the water." And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. Apparently, those grandkids SAM KEAN: Were less prone to diabetes. PAT: Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said DESTINY HARRIS: She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? [laughs[ Exactly. I know! This is nice and quiet. PAT: When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. Turning down a job that they'd offered him. JAD: Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. SAM KEAN: They wanted to see basically the effects of starvation on multiple generations. You're eight, sorry. LULU: In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. Nice, cool water. That's the stuff that makes you you. Okay, I'm here. ROBERT: You wonder, where did that come from? He thought it worked with humans, too. You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. PAT: But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore. SAM KEAN: And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. Move on to the next cage yes, no? Baby, be careful. Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. You must have internet access to do this). So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of, So I guess you could say to yourself, "Seven out of eight of these kids did all right?". Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. ], You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Yeah, lets read.]. Just until they hatch and then 'til they go off. PAT: And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County. Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. ROBERT: One-fourth? JAD: So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. It means what if grandpa has a bad day? Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. PAT: In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. JAD: But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. ROBERT: What do you mean? BARBARA HARRIS: Because he couldn't hold formula down. PAT: And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. He's 22, 23, and he already had this reputation for being amazing at keeping animals alive, that otherwise would just die. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser, Radiolab is a podcast known for using innovative sound design to ask deep questions and investigative journalism to get the answers. Looking for patterns in cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, and such. Started with the tongue. And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. BARBARA HARRIS: Sounds bizarre, but it's a solution. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You would be licking them quite a lot. JAD: Started with the tongue. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. CARL ZIMMER: I just have to read this to you. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. His example with humans was a blacksmith. JAD: I dont know. JAD: [laughs] Youre just just judo, that's all this is. LATIF: Still, still standing. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. But it failed. Kammerer puts on a suit and he walks off into the mountains Outside Vienna on a Rocky mountain trail. I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. She got one. Even if it helps, it's horrifying. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. Okay, and then I just had to accept it. We travel to Ukraine to follow a shipment of abortion pills, and discover a complicated conversation about pregnancy and choice in wartime. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. It was something they acquired during their lifetime. So yeah, she keeps me busy. ROBERT: Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. This is the verkalix church parish record. Around 1908, he started publishing all of these results. There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. Stick around. I'm Executive Director and Founder of National Advocates for Pregnant Women. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. LULU: Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Like you said, when you were in your addiction like she is], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I didn't say I'm God. Is that what you're saying? SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. You cant say that. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. JAD: And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. These are women who love their children, who sought help. Radiolab: Parasites Transcript For copyright reasons we can't provide a transcript of the WNYC Radiolab feature on parasites. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. So FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So we start looking at maternal care. With NPR's Rough Translation. So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. I said, "No, no, that's okay." Anyways, God bless you. And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong. ROBERT: Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. Or did I somehow learn that? Like shed give the women a choice. Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. PAT: A year later, she gets another call. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. If you've already had a kid, you can be sterilized. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. And in1923, he actually comes to England. More brain cells? And so, you could only see one nuptial pad, and it all comes down to thisand all of that was just about to fall apart. If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. 10 Controversial And Thought-Provoking 'Radiolab' Episodes. I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. What does it look like? This is spooky because it's like JAD: It means what if grandpa has a bad day? That's 9, 10, 11. JAD: Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness. And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. Radiolab is on YouTube! DESTINY HARRIS: And that could have very easily have been one of us. Radiolab is a radio program produced by WNYC, a public radio station in New York City, and broadcast on public radio stations in the United States. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. Suddenly you're marked. Kick off certain hormonal systems. JAD: When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. You can do this. Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women], Have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]. All rights reserved. JAD: One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. I had a little basketball for her. 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