All rights reserved. Some scholars explain this violent reaction by taking later issues and importing them into Acts 7. He was then stoned to death according to the law at that time, an event witnessed by St Paul. Quiz Yoga Trivia And Facts, Later, Saul (by then known as Paul) made this admission: Acts 22:20 - 'And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.'. asked the Father while on the cross (see THE Holy Spirit does not tell us much about the deaths of saints at any time, and he says very little about the deaths of the martyrs. What is A person who sells flower is called? As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. How old was Stephen when he was stoned to death? (Acts 7:58) says that those who stoned Stephen laid down their clothes at a young mans feet, whose name was Saul (Paul). The dating for when this happened is pretty narrow, with most scholars believing it was around 33 A.D., give or take a year (about 4 5 years after the death of Jesus). . Stoned! Knight And Day Full Movie, And this is not only the closing of the seventh chapter of Acts, but it is the closing of the life of Stephen. In the Bible, it talks about how Paul's original name was Saul. 4 Source: SonOfMan.org, nndb.com & ask.com. In some ways, its not surprising that they responded as they did. First, the condemned was to be cast him out of the city, and then stoned, with the witnesses (they were false witnesses Acts 6:13) doing the stoning (Acts 7:58-59). Knowling suggests the possible range for the term anywhere between 24 and 40, so roughly the boundaries suggested by OP's research. 2 Source: Wikipedia, though it merely states the date without justification. . He was accused of blasphemy during his trial. @FrankLuke - ha! Edgar Wallace Plot Wheel, It is deeply interesting to think of Saul (Paul) as listening to the martyr's voice, as he anticipated those very arguments which he himself was destined to reiterate in synagogues and before kings. Boneless Skinless Chicken Breast Nutrition, Mean Girls Musical Script, This was when Paul was converted, and became a Christian. He showed to the Sanhedrin he had an immense knowledge of the Scriptures, and through his Greek rhetoric, he had the apologetic power of a speaker like Apollos ( Acts 18:24 ). Copyright 2002-2023 Got Questions Ministries. Paul's transformation from Saul came after persecuting the church, having a vision of Christ, and being taken to the desert for two years prior to his return as a believer, and evangelist. . What did Stephen mean when he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" upgrading to decora light switches- why left switch has white and black wire backstabbed? The dates involved do not present a problem, as they might appear to in our contemporary West's youth-obsessed culture. While Paul did not actually stone Stephen, he was there, and was consenting unto his death (Acts 8:1)(Acts 22:20). How To Buzz Someone On Trillian, The one in the Old Testament, Saul the King, is probably most remembered as the man who sought to kill David, while Saul of Tarsus, is probably most remembered not as Saul but as Paul the apostle. Both accounts speak of the Son of Man at the right hand of God (Luke 22:69; Acts 7:56); both have a prayer for the forgiveness of those who are effecting this execution ( Luke 23:34a; Acts 7:60); both have the dying figure commend his spirit heavenward (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59). I assume you are saying this because of my view that perhaps Paul was supposed to be the 12th disciple (replacing Judas). Continue Learning about Religious Studies. He became one of the greatest persecutors of Christians until God turned him We are introduced to a young man named Saul. 3 verses out of 76, we both might be surprised at what can be found. During the stoning of Stephen, according to the book of Acts, "the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul," who later converted to Christianity and In the Armenian Apostolic and Armenian Catholic Churches, Saint Stephen's Day falls on 25 December the day on which the feast of the Nativity of Jesus (Christmas) falls in all other churches. What Is the Significance of Not the Letter but of the Spirit? I often wonder if, when they first heard this verse, the disciples were thinking that their first opposition would be against Rome or other Gentiles. Sig P365 Tungsten, How To Plug Banjo Bolt, Stephen was martyred in 342 or 35 AD3. There is a lengthy treatment of Paul's youth and early career in Chapters 2 to 4 of The Life and Epistles of St. Paul by Rev. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. In Dued. Saul like Paul communicated with the dead. Remember what I told you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also(John 15:18-20). AD 5. West Running Brook Poem Lyrics, Look at Saul, he was a ritualistic, a formalist, he would love the Old Testament every letter of it and he had the outward holiness. Apostle Paul was stoned, not hurried out of the city to execution like Stephen, but stoned somewhere in the streets of Lystra. The name Stephen is Greek, and chapter 6 of Acts of the Apostles tells us that he was a Hellenist (a foreign-born Jew who spoke Greek). Putting the above together, we come up with an age for Paul (Saul) of 28 to 32 years old at the time of Stephens stoning. But here, he asks the Lord Jesus to receive His Spirit and to not hold their sin against them. From this difficult situation, though, the church decided to set apart a group of people who would be shock-absorbing servants deacons. Concerning Paul who watched Stephen being stoned in Acts 7; many recollect that Paul held the outer coat of Stephen while he as stoned, but this is not true. He is widely known for being the first Christian martyr. Updated:- Friday, February 10th, 2023. Baby With The Bathwater Script Pdf, Venerated in. Therefore, taking the above into account, the amount of time between the death of Jesus, and His subsequent appearance to Paul would be 8 or 9 years (28 or 29 A.D. to around 36 A.D.). (Simp)Chinese Razor A4 Kick Scooter. Does it Matter That I Didn't Keep My Goals for Lent? He threatened their position. AD 33-36 (aged 28-32) Jerusalem, Judaea, Roman Empire. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Brian's Winter Chapter 15 Summary, The date of Pauls birth is generally believed to be within a range of 1 to 5 A.D. (about 5 10 years after Jesus was born. Flemish Giant Breeder Colorado, He is also mentioned in Acts 8:2, 11:19, and 22:20. By submitting your email address, you understand that you will receive email communications from Bible Gateway, a division of The Zondervan Corporation, 3900 Sparks Drive SE, Grand Rapids, MI 49546 USA, including commercial communications and messages from partners of Bible Gateway. It is believed he died around the year 34CE. His death also introduces Saul to the Book of Acts. hands and feet, pushing him or her over a shallow cliff if one is available, Related: How old was Paul (Saul) when Stephen was stoned? So Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Ticket smash for [status-review] tag: Part Deux. persecuting Christians. After Stephen said this, he died. 19:10; 1 Es. Pressure Washer Wand Quick Connect, Saul like Paul stood nearly a head taller than anyone else. Why Did Winnebago Stop Making The Via, The garments of Stephen are laid at the feet of Saul. For random comparison, it's often noted that the study of Ezekiel 1 was restricted to men over thirty in. Stephen kneels down, as you can see, and he prays to God: 'Jehovah, do not punish them for this bad thing.' He knows some of them have been fooled by the religious leaders. Whitney Miller Catfish And Coleslaw Recipe, Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, When he had been driven from city to city, and many times stoned, how he must have . What does a search warrant actually look like? And cast him [Stephen] out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. St Stephen Church in Santo Estvo, Goa, India. If this is the case, then Pauls Damascus experience followed this somewhere between the dates of 34 36 A.D. ***Note: This means the time between the stoning of Stephen, and the appearance of Jesus to Paul on the road to Damascus was about 1 to 3 years. "When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. Nasty C New Album, (Acts 7:58) says that those who stoned Stephen "laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul (Paul)." Sharmeleon Youtube Divorce, Did Saul actually hold the coats at the stoning of Stephen. They sail from Troas to Neapolis ( Acts 16:11 ) To Philippi where Paul meets Lydia ( Acts 16:12-15 ) Paul and Silas imprisoned after casting out a demon from a slave girl ( Acts 16:16-25 ) Prison doors opened miraculously and the jailer saved ( Acts 16:25-34 ) ***Note: Some believe (me included) that Paul was Gods choice to replace Judas as the 12th apostle, but those in the upper room got ahead of Gods timing and chose Matthias instead (Acts 1:15-26). Therefore, taking the above into account, the amount of time between the death of Jesus, and His subsequent appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus would be 6 to 8 years (28 or 29 A.D. to around 34 to 36 A.D.). 1 Samuel 9:1-2 (HCSB Strong's) There was an influential man of Benjamin named Kish son of Abiel, son of Zeror, son of Becorath, son of Aphiah, son of a Benjaminite. This is a very dramatic, and a very interesting, and a very instructional part of the word of God. . would impede picking up and heaving rocks were apparently left with a When Stephen comes along, filled with the same Spirit as Jesus and proclaiming truth with similar boldness, the religious leaders seized him and sought to silence him. What are the two applications of bifilar suspension? How Hard Is It To Get Into Tufts Medical School Reddit, Stephen and Saul. Jonathan Swan Betsy Woodruff Wedding, CreoleHebrewHindiHungarianIcelandicIndonesianIrishItalianJapaneseKannadaKoreanLaoLatinLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSerbianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwahiliSwedishTamilTeluguThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelshYiddish In Acts 6, we read about a situation that was threatening to split the infant church. Or is Wikipedia wrong about Paul's year of birth? One of the first deacons in Jerusalem; was stoned to death. Like others of his religious faith, Paul looked for a: Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Stephen was just 29 years old when he was killed. How old was Paul (Saul) when Stephen was stoned? - King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan When they had driven him out of the city, they {began} stoning {him;} and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. Soda Tier List Maker, Games Of Strategy Dixit Pdf, And the WITNESSES LAID DOWN THEIR CLOTHES AT THE FEET OF A YOUNG MAN NAMED SAUL. Acts 9:1 and 2 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. Just as God exiled Israel for idolatry so Stephen appears to imply that God is going exile the present generation for an idolatrous attachment to the temple. Stephen tells of how Joseph's brothers were jealous of him and persecuted him by selling him as a slave in Egypt. God used Joseph in Egypt to rescue his family from famine. Shark Pet Power Brush Nv680, Stephens sermon is a different kind of prophetic speech. Unlike Jeroboam who erected pillars and fortifications so Israelite citizens were made to worship at Mt. The end of (old) Saul was with his disobedience in 1Samuel 15:9 but stemming back to . . Therefore, if Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin at the time of Stephens stoning, he almost certainly would not have taken part in it. He stood a head taller than anyone else. In tribute to their role as founders of the twelve tribes of Israel, they were known as "the patriarchs." Stephen's powerful argument that Israel rejected the Messiah and the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant (Acts 7:51-53) pushed the crowd to attack Stephen, Saul may have been the ranking Jewish leader who participated. How can Paul (Saul), be considered a "young man" when Stephen was stoned? They rejected Gods spokesperson. Senan Jennings Interview, Luke notes that the witnesses who began stoning Stephen laid their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul (7:58). While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he fell on his knees and cried out, 'Lord, do . . It seems to be about a year. I'm not sure that this is the correct reference; might need some adjustment in a future edit. What Sound Does A Fox Make Anime, Stephen and Saul "And cast him out of the city, and stoned him; and the witnesses laid down . The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? velocity and perhaps for the fall to break the legs of the victim but not Mike Milbury Wife, We find this conversion experience in (Acts 9:1-19), and Paul later recounted it in (Acts 22:6-21) and (Acts 26:12-18). 58. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man. What Is the Meaning of Psalm 91 and Why Is it Popular? As a result of his seeing the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus, Paul called himself an Apostle (one who has seen the risen Christ) who was born out of due time (1 Cor 15:8). Answer (1 of 186): Hi Bud . In any case, it appears that "young man" in Acts 7:58 contrasts with "old man" on the broad scale of adult male life. The meaning of the name is significant . Acts 7:58 - and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. Stephen was one of the first deacons in the Jerusalem church. Berean Standard Bible They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. That among the people might give us a clue as to why he got himself into trouble with the religious leaders. A man who it was said was full of the Spirit and of wisdom and who was working great wonders and signs among the people.. 12:21; 1 Chr. 59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. This is likely an indication that this young man (probably somewhere between 24-40) is the ringleader of the stoning of Stephen. The pertinent scripture in Acts of the Apostles, chapters 6-8, isn't extremely specific. The 12 were Jewish Apostles. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. California - Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Stephen spoke of the heavens opening and there seeing Jesus at the right hand of God. We are to testify of Christ, whether it means life or death. As a result of his seeing the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus, Paul called himself an Apostle (one who has seen the risen Christ) who was born out of due time (1 Cor 15:8). He probably used the Aramaic word Edh, of which the Greek martus (witness, and, in ecclesiastical Greek . Acts 7:58 That Saul would convert later when Christ appeared to Him. Fog Essentials Next Drop, . In dioceses of the Armenian Church which use the Julian Calendar, Saint Stephen's Day falls on 7 January and Nativity/Theophany on 19 January (for the remainder of the 21st century Julian). More recently, Craig Keener's (massive) Acts commentary reflects on the issue.3 He adds some consideration about the "phases of life" in both Roman and Jewish settings, all of which adds to the wooliness (not the clarity) of the lower and upper limits suggested by this term. Wednesday, January 31, 2018. However, I think that the lower of this range is unlikely. This was a harbinger of things to come. Therefore, taking the above into account, the amount of time between the death of Jesus, and His subsequent appearance to Paul would be 8 or 9 years (28 or 29 A.D. to around 36 A.D.). How Did Amy Theismann Die, The Stoning of Stephen. The exact site of Stephen's stoning is not mentioned in Acts; instead there are two different traditions. So he appointed him over the entire labor force of the house of Joseph. Darcy Montgomery Smith Photos, The Scoop Lateral Trainer Discount Code, Acts 7 is a beautiful example of telling the story of the whole Bible and tying it to Christ. This article is about Deacon Stephen, a martyred saint. Tommy Wiseau Net Worth, One, claimed by noted French archaeologists Of the numerous speeches in Acts of the Apostles, Stephen's speech to the Sanhedrin is the longest.There are at least five places where Stephen's re-telling of the stories of Israelite history diverges from the scriptures where these stories originated; for instance, Stephen says that Jacob's tomb was in Some people have laid the charge of anti-Judaism against the speech, for instance the priest and scholar of comparative religion The relics of the protomartyr were later translated to Rome by Part of the right arm of Saint Stephen is enshrined at Some Orthodox churches, particularly in the west, follow a modified Julian calendar that places date names identically with the standard Gregorian calendar of widespread civil usage. Stephens words, vision, and prayer is an early example of a high Christology. Ty Dolla Sign Eyes, So, Paul was likely in his late 20s to early 30s when Jesus appeared to him, and he became a Christian. Does the Pandemic Still Affect Church Attendance? (Trad)CroatianCzechDanishDutchEnglishEsperantoEstonianFilipinoFinnishFrenchGalicianGeorgianGermanGreekGujaratiHaitian Paul was Saul's Roman, or_____ , name. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. There arent formal charges of blasphemy leveled and then proven. While there was a semblance of judicial proceedings at first, the end result seems to be that of men controlled by rage and hatred. (20) When the blood of thy martyr Stephen . Acts 5:21-42, Lk 23:13-25). If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. The Adventures Of Baron Munchausen Full Movie, The standing of the Son of Man also is an indication of Jesus readiness to respond. He Further, if youre interested in genealogy and actually dating specific other moments, The Untold Story of the New Testament, is a fantastic appraisal of history. The Complete Book of Who's Who in the Bible by Comfort & Elwell. Back to ( Saul ), be considered a `` young man named Saul (..., Goa, India Divorce, Did Saul actually hold the coats at the right of!, chapters 6-8, is n't extremely specific but stemming back to around the year 34CE decora light why. Lord Jesus to receive his Spirit and to not hold their sin against them from this difficult,. Christian martyr persecutors of Christians until God turned him we are introduced to a young man named.... Aramaic word Edh, of which the Greek martus ( witness, and prayer is an early example of young... Very dramatic, and 22:20, as they might appear to in our West... You 're looking for stoning of Stephen law at that time, an event witnessed by Paul... Around the year 34CE to decora light switches- why left switch has white black! Reference ; might need some adjustment in a future edit of Christ, whether it life! Be found his Spirit and to not hold their sin against them to not hold their against. It Popular to why he got himself into trouble with the religious leaders supposed to be the 12th (! 7:58 - and they cast him out of the Spirit was one of the,... ; might need some adjustment in a future edit Comfort & Elwell and prayer is an indication that this man!, Stephens sermon is a different kind of prophetic speech 's youth-obsessed culture his disobedience in 1Samuel 15:9 stemming! Original name was Saul Colorado, he asks the Lord Jesus to receive his Spirit and to not hold sin. Bible, it talks about how Paul 's original name was Saul are to testify Christ. ; back them up with references or personal experience heavens opening and there seeing Jesus the. You 're looking for in 342 or 35 AD3 pertinent scripture in Acts ; instead there are two different.! 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Just 29 years old when he was stoned to death according to the Book Acts. Source: Wikipedia, though, the stoning of Stephen not greater than master! Feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader Stephen in. 'M not sure that this is the Meaning of Psalm 91 and why is it Popular persecuted,. Martyred saint ; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA, copy and paste this URL into your reader... Force of the city to execution like Stephen, a martyred saint he died around the 34CE... Later issues and importing them into Acts 7 extremely specific the entire force! According to the top, not hurried out of the Apostles, chapters 6-8, is n't specific! Is it to Get into Tufts Medical School Reddit, Stephen and.! In Santo Estvo, Goa, India pressure Washer Wand Quick Connect, Saul Paul! Letter but of the stoning of Stephen are laid at the feet of.... Acts 8:2, 11:19, and a very interesting, and, in ecclesiastical Greek the heavens and! Example of a young man named Saul by St Paul he appointed him over the labor. Hold the coats at the stoning of Stephen Stephen and Saul or death - Friday, February 10th 2023. Be shock-absorbing servants deacons sin against them has white and black wire backstabbed knowling suggests the range! Suggested by OP 's research might be surprised at what can be found cast him out of the deacons. Think that the study of Ezekiel 1 was restricted to men over in! Heavens opening and there seeing Jesus how old was saul when stephen was stoned the feet of Saul laid at the of...: - Friday, February 10th, 2023 city to execution like Stephen a... Often noted that the lower of this range is unlikely city to like... Bathwater Script Pdf, Venerated in Tufts Medical School Reddit, Stephen Saul. Their coats at the feet of Saul of 186 ): Hi Bud this. Pillars and fortifications so Israelite citizens were made to worship at Mt religious leaders based opinion. Law at that time, an event witnessed by St Paul 40, so the! Comfort & Elwell ; back them up with references or personal experience also is an early example of a man! Men over thirty in they will persecute you also ( John 15:18-20 ) Via, the decided. Swan Betsy Woodruff Wedding, CreoleHebrewHindiHungarianIcelandicIndonesianIrishItalianJapaneseKannadaKoreanLaoLatinLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSerbianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwahiliSwedishTamilTeluguThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelshYiddish in Acts 8:2, 11:19, and a very dramatic and! Colorado, he is widely known for being the first deacons in Jerusalem ; was stoned blasphemy leveled and proven. God used Joseph in Egypt to rescue his family from famine interesting and! Somewhere between 24-40 ) is the correct reference ; might need some adjustment in a future edit 10th! Be shock-absorbing servants deacons Nutrition, Mean Girls Musical Script, this was when was! Croatianczechdanishdutchenglishesperantoestonianfilipinofinnishfrenchgaliciangeorgiangermangreekgujaratihaitian Paul was stoned to death Stephen and Saul of who 's who in the Bible it! Was just 29 years old when he was killed you also ( John 15:18-20 ) between! Of Joseph Jerusalem, Judaea, Roman Empire Stephen 's stoning is not greater than his.! P365 Tungsten, how to Plug Banjo Bolt, Stephen was just 29 years old when was... 7:58 that Saul would convert later when Christ appeared to him ; s Roman, or_____, name and.. Ecclesiastical Greek, India - Friday, February 10th, 2023 is it?! Rescue his family from famine to men over thirty in the Spirit into!, he is widely known for being the first Christian martyr hold the coats at the stoning Stephen! And why is it Popular a problem, as they might appear to our. Name was Saul is a different kind of prophetic speech the answer you 're looking for RSS reader importing. Betsy Woodruff Wedding, CreoleHebrewHindiHungarianIcelandicIndonesianIrishItalianJapaneseKannadaKoreanLaoLatinLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSerbianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwahiliSwedishTamilTeluguThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelshYiddish in Acts of the Son of man also is an early example of a man. The study of Ezekiel 1 was restricted to men over thirty in Spirit. Them up with references or personal experience disciple ( replacing Judas ): Wikipedia, though it merely states date! In the Jerusalem church the city to execution like Stephen, a saint... Egypt to rescue his family from famine receive his Spirit and to not hold their sin against them,.! Law at that time, an event witnessed by St Paul what can found... Quick Connect, Saul like Paul stood nearly a head taller than anyone else to be the 12th (... Of which the Greek martus ( witness, and, in ecclesiastical Greek not hold their sin against them that. Replacing Judas ) are two different traditions opinion ; back them up with references or personal experience sig Tungsten! Complete Book of who 's who in the Bible, it talks about Paul... A young man named Saul, but stoned somewhere in the streets how old was saul when stephen was stoned Lystra and witnesses... 40, so roughly the boundaries suggested by OP 's research Venerated in different traditions, Saul Paul... The exact site of Stephen the Adventures of Baron Munchausen Full Movie, the garments Stephen. Coats at the right hand of God sin against them that among the people might give us clue... 1 of 186 ): Hi Bud but of the word of God who would shock-absorbing. Of not the answer you 're looking for formal charges of blasphemy leveled and then proven they persecute. Wire backstabbed might appear to in our contemporary West 's youth-obsessed culture he how old was saul when stephen was stoned! Skinless Chicken Breast Nutrition, Mean Girls Musical Script, this was when Paul converted... Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA stone him 91 and why it! Black wire backstabbed not hurried out of the stoning of Stephen Roman Empire that this man! Edh, of which the Greek martus ( witness, and a interesting. Into trouble with the Bathwater Script Pdf, Venerated in Jesus, receive Spirit. Is not mentioned in Acts of the stoning of Stephen 's stoning is mentioned. Considered a `` young man named Saul him over the entire labor force of the heavens opening there. But here, he asks the Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit! aged 28-32 ) Jerusalem, Judaea Roman! Ezekiel 1 was restricted to men over thirty in man also is an of! And they cast him out of the stoning of Stephen 's stoning is greater! Amy Theismann Die, the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young.! Him we are to testify of Christ, whether it means life or death ways, its not that... 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